I have lot of doubts on accuracy of history, of India, about all kings – about all kingdoms! Something does not seem right to me, except British Raj! During their time they had press running in the country, which made things bit transparent. Apart from that there were other secret publications run by freedom fighters. With all these records we have a clear idea of bloodthirsty rulers of British East India.
History of Older kingdoms, on the other hand, was mostly based on travelogues of a few visitors and other delicate records. Travellers certainly had the pleasure of King’s hospitality, then, would definitely write something neat on him. Stone encryptions, again, are commissioned by royals. There are also palm leaf scriptures (in Pali, Sanskrit etc) which were written by the elite (educated) crowd of King’s court. Obviously, their education (and living) was funded by king himself. Now why wouldn’t we expect plain old asslicking praise on king and his kingdom? If these go on making history, how accurate is our history?
Talking about history and its accuracy, I would like mention about a post I came across on desicritics by beingCynical. It was about Aurangzeb and his misdeeds, especially his intolerance. This post presents a beautiful argument on this Mughal emperor, and claims that history is inaccurate about his rule. I am pasting a Para from that post:
What drives us to be so judgemental and conclusive without knowing the facts? Is it the bad and wrong history that been taught via the millions of government supplied history books, where truth is far fetched as history is fabricated to support someones ego and wants? The fact is good history is rarely about good guys and bad guys but unfortunately we follow this simplistic logic while going over our history, resulting in putting on a perception pair of glasses while engrossing it. I believe that history should be presented as it is, no biasing, no fabrication or no forced conclusion and the readers should be left to decide the good or the bad for themselves. I was sure that our text books are being pathetically modified, God knows for what and whom, so I always had a fascination for all those controversial & bad characters or so being pictured in books.
This part is 100% true; we certainly have omitted a large portion of history for our convenience (or likings). It could be due to several reasons, most probably to make our history look good, simple “tidy up”.
Anyways, my claim here is that our kings were not great, tolerant and merciful, leave alone Aurangzeb. I feel, being ruthless is natural for a king and it could be easily anticipated in a kingdom which is external to the society with a background of different culture, religion and ideology. Ruthlessness comes in package with power.
Let’s just have a look around to see what power has done to the present world, which talks about peace and stuff…
Burma keeps democratically elected victor in house arrest for decades. China repeatedly violates human rights and this doesn’t reach rest of the world. Few countries in Middle East ignore everything about women rights. African countries prioritise religious rules over hunger and decease. Let’s go backwards, there were Pol Pots and Hitlers who killed millions, for their beliefs. Before that, Roman church (as a state) killed many for not agreeing with them. There were crusaders Salahdeens, Gengis Khans and Huns. Persian kings were Gods and they wanted whole (known world) to bow to their king. There were Aryan tribes where tribal leader Indra was their God. I can go on and on…
Our guys were butchers too, it’s not registered in history properly, that’s all; say Asokas, Kaniska, Guptas etc. Were they good rulers, impartial, respecting human rights and tolerant? History books say they all were fantastic rulers. They laid roads, built schools, eased taxes etc etc endless songs. Text books are all in praises for all the rulers of India except couple of names here and there. This doesn’t make any sense to me, when the whole worlds have fought each other like barbarians, how can Indian rulers possibly be that great?
Among all these examples let’s pick something in the middle, not too old or new. Mughals! How great were Mughals? Mughal era is sandwiched between British Raj and few invaders from Afghanistan. British raj was notorious for taking the wealth out, and same were Afghani invaders, Ghori and Ghazni repeatedly attacked Indian places of worship and looted wealth away. They had power to do so and had no moral and religious obligation to hold back. Now, did Mughals do it? They did not have anything in common with India religion, culture and language plus they had army to loot. Still, nothing is registered in our history, why? It does not sound logical. Overriding someone’s culture with their own has ranged between Aryans till British, why do our Mughals stand out?
To point out some of their larger than life qualities…
Tolerance: This looks almost impossible. Tolerance can be achieved in a society only if everyone (Rulers/subjects minority/majority) belongs to same group, Look at India, Pakistan and Srilanka for nearest examples, Are we tolerant?. Religious tolerance is not something a 15th century emperor can achieve when still holocausts run in the 20th. Rulers simply can’t resist it, to let live other tribe peacefully. But we have convinced ourselves that somehow a whole batch of emperors were tolerant. Is it not a valid argument that, this part of the history was not written, or erased deliberately?
Human rights: Indian history does not talk about this anyway, about any kingdoms as a matter of fact. I would like to see history registering all the details, along with laid roads and built schools and stuff. It should also describe burnt widows, killed witches, married infants, erased a tribes. History conveniently omits all these details and still sings “the most merciful”. We are talking about these emperors who cut the hands of thousands of workers who built Taj Mahal, just to make sure that they don’t build another of this kind. What is so merciful about this?
Do you want to know about mercifulness of Kings? Watch Caligula, you will see how pervert Cesar (entire society in fact) was. Read Fairy tale Arabian nights, where every night the Caliph executes his newlywed wife (of that day) for not satisfying him with a story. Apparently this is children’s book, on morals! Coming to the point, yes this is how kings behave.
On women rights: If this statistics make any sense to you, India has one of the biggest honour killing states till date. Its mainly happens in five to six major states where major kingdoms ruled, just extrapolate these numbers to get a picture of those days. One more fact I read, we had notorious zenana system running in Mughal kingdoms, where dozens of wives won in a battle were “stored” like cattle.. There were eunuchs guarding these rooms so that “queens” can’t do anything even if they get human urges.
Our history text books don’t talk about any of these, just because they look bad on our “glorious” past? How can history be “history”, if they talk only half truth? I hope one day a serious unbiased research will be done on Indian history to provide us with complete picture on our Shahenshahs.[tweetmeme]
The Bach 
Hi Bach,
it has been the pseudo-seculars in India who has persistently distorted the history. Especially the communists.
But the good thing about the internet is that it gives us the opportunity to find opposing views and evidence.
I can quote a number of western scholars and their research into Indian history. But this was an eyeopener for me. Was There an Islamic “Genocide” of Hindus?
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littleInidan,
I knew you that you know more about this. 🙂
Koenraad of course, I know this guy and I have read his works, some five years back. Now, I think, is time for me to read him again. Thanks for the link.
On communists, I don’t understand. I don’t see their agenda doing this.
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Hi bach,
this is another page from Mr Elst’s site.
NEGATIONISM IN INDIA
Halfway thru in the chapter is about the role of Marxists in negationism.
I have a list of similar sites, I’ll dig them out if you are interested.
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I am currently going through them, thanks for the link.
and sure I am interested for further readings.. well, I am going to search for them myself. But certainly your list will help, please do post it.
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we are fed half-truths. and there was a discussion regarding the same some time ago.
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Mouna,
Thanks. I dint get the discussion part, where was the discussion .. in a government body ?
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yup, there was a debate on this, some years ago when the cbse board decided to change the syllabi for ncert history books. don’t know how much it helped. according to me, it hardly did.
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I dont think a fair consideration would have done.. with the number and kind of complaints we have , text books revolutions should’ve happened by now.
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Here is a comprehensive list (with references) of Islamic Destruction of Hindu Temples as recorded by muslim historians of the time.
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Oh, that’s very useful.. ready made material if government revisits text books.
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Half truths is what the aam junta prefers. Would certain sections of the Indian population take it lightly if their religious ruler is put in bad light? It seems like more of a political game to put our erstwhile rulers in bad light rather than be truthful.
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Possibly true (high probability).. but why glorifying 15th century kings would help them win vote in 21st ?
In that case something seriously wrong with us “we the voters” 🙂
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hmmm…. now , why zero in on Mughals 🙂 why not our own Vijayanagar kingdom…or the so many other hindu kingdoms spread far n wide during the mughals..who were vassals of the mughals..but were equal in their tyranny or goodness ( or maybe worse ?) I find it quite amusing how we don’t really let an opportunity go by when it comes to pointing out the genocidal traits of muslim kings..how different were the HIndu kings..I assume the title a misnomer..guess u were pointing at the pantheon of indian kings as an entity and not singling out the mughals…
by the way..how historically chronicled are we even in our own times…. even if it is being chronicled , are we paying attention…why is it that Marichjapi massacre or Nelli massacre does not count the same as the sikh riots of 84 or 2002 gujrat? if sheer numbers turns us on..nelli and marichjapi are godzillas compared to wht happd at guj n 84…. or for starters remember watching braveheart and how all of us got worked up when the bride was to sleep with the english landowners in scotland for few days before they r to sleep with their husbands …. but when it comes to our own country , how many of us are aware that it is still in vogue ??
guess am rambling.. does history matter…or even does the present matter 🙂 maybe for a nice juicy blog and an offhand comment…and back to our safe cocooned life
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Dilip,
Long time, in Blogosphere 🙂 nice to see you.
Yes , I have same questions on other kings as well. I just wanted to pick one empire so that I can keep the post shorter. In addition to that these are set of rulers ruled a country where religion and faith is different than themselves.
Totally totally Hindu kings (vijaynagar you named)did same things.. but I cant be discussing tolerance in their case
I am little less aware of marichjapi .. I am reading about it right away
Finally history does matter.. as long as someone reads about it.. and there are million kids study it everyday .. along with gravitational laws. When Science text books gets corrected whenever needed why not history(correction, not change)
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@ Dileep,
Not all of write to produce juicy blogs or off hand comments. There are many of us who have made the effort of reading unbiased and non-distorted history. Which I am certain, reading your comment, you have not. For you refer to Vijayanagar, the Nellie and Marichjhapi massacres – you wouldn’t have if you were aware of the chronology of events of decades that led to them.
You write,
this is not about taking the opportunity to point out the genocidal traits of muslims – this is about the denial of the hindu genocides since Ghazni; and deliberately and systematically erasing it from history There is a difference which it appears you are unable to comprehend.
Islam is a religion that preaches violence and killings against non-believers. To convert infidels at the point of the sword. Please enlighten me of any episode in history where Hindu kings have converted non-hindus to hinduism through bloodshed and genocides.
Is that what you really believe?
Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland. Why? So that we learn about our failures in preventing atrocities in human history. So that we never let such atrocities happen ever again.
Do return to your cocooned life, deluding yourself of safety by your denials – till you have someone close to you die by the hand of islamic jihadists.
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@ little indian. there is something called lines laced with sarcasm… ‘ does history matter ‘ is evidently sarcastic 🙂
genodice was not even a word in use during the mughals :).. UN charter defining the word..obviously since you are an ardent reader..guess i would not dare to point out a fact well known to u
can we view the happenings of yore with the prism of present context…i have a reason for this , i understand your platform , am not denying the invasions and the scourge which followed.. but what i want to bring to your notice is , it is not about islam or hindus.. it is about conquerors and the losers..have you read about Pulekeshi the great chalukya king who defeated Harshavcardhana ..maybe you would have also known the fact that he plundered the pallava capital of Kanchipuram and razed it to ground, wiping out people from the capital…which was replied in the same coin by the pallavas later , after 9 years.. destroying vatapi..razing it to ground..:) Hindus ( jinas / jains ) so why are u so stuck up with what mughals did.. i think i can point out so many such examples.. for that matter , the inqusition..the order by the portugese to raze every temple ion goa.. or Jains being driven out by Shankaracharya’s followers..my friend… blood spilled is blood spilled..maybe islamic invaders have more on their record..but does that take away the fac t that hindu kings too committed heinous attrocities ???
I see your views to be contradictory 🙂 reason being..if you speak of humans not committing such henious acts as holocaust wonder why are u so much into the threat posed by islamic jihadists 🙂 stinks of retribution to me atleast…
anyways for your info.. my wife’s sister died in a terrorist bomb attack.. and I think i understand how it feels to be a victim of hate and violence..
and I wish our little Indian does grow to be a bigger and better indian 🙂
Cheers
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@ Dileep,
you said:
My comment to Bach’s original post was to
1. write weblinks to research done by recognised western scholars.
2. write about negationism in India about Muslim atrocities.
But like the usual pseudo-secularist you twist my comments to claim I regenerate hatred. When the world over is concerned about Islamic Jihadists. You are living in cloud cuckooland.
The Islamic Jihad started in the seventh century and continues today. With wider aims that threatens the fundamental rights of every individual. Every human being.
I do not quote history to regenerate hatred, I read to know the truth. The hatred that you see today was born centuries ago.
There is no veil of sarcasm in your comment about. It followed from what you wrote before it.
BTW, You do not know me, yet you do not hesitate to say:
littleindian is my blogging nickname – to try to use it to make personal and/or condescending comments confirms your immaturity. Pathetic.
_________________________________________________
To anyone who falls for such pseudosecular garbage written by individuals like Dileep, I will request you to visit
1. this site – http://www.jihadwatch.org/
2. and watch the film Fitna – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1198399/
These are just two examples of how others (non-indians) are concerned by Islamic jihadists. They have no reason to regenerate hatred yet they are voicing concerns based on true incidents that are ongoing.
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@ Bachs , I agree with you Bachs..but am worried about history being read and interpreted for retribution..have had enough of violence..I would rather have all history erased than re read it in a different light and seek vengeful..
Imagine if i were a dalit..and I were to read in text books as to how my ancestors were brutalized by the hindu upper class , do u think it would help me to develop tolerance ?? sorry , i think i would be willing up to pick up arms to avenge..right ?? reading history is all fine..but interpreting it to suit our narrow vengeful outlook is dangerous ..point in context , see how our Little indian got worked up about Muslim brutality.. do u see the futility of this reading of history if it were to regenerate hatred ?
And yeah , Marichjapi has to be read..n blog abt it if y0u can, atleast we need to understand how the shenanigans of democracy and communism do yeomen service in wiping out ppl who they claims to protect
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@ Dileep,
to add.
You say
Genocide is defined as “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.”
It is a modern day word, but that does not prove the acts of the Mughal invaders does not fall within that definition. The atrocities they committed was GENOCIDE. Your argument here is pathetic.
You say
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Bach,
Nice write-ups !
History definitely is made up by parties/people who emerge victorious. Still worse part is fabricated lies on long term becomes history 🙂
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butterfly,
Thanks for the comments and welcome to my blog.
Thats right , victor writes history 😦
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@ Little Indian — I am sorry , I couldn resist to take a potshot as your Blog name provided such a fab opportunity 🙂 ( ah , now we all have to grow bigger and better , dont we ? 🙂 )
Dear Little Indian.. from when did some westerners thinking Indians as ignorants become so important :)..please don’t be embarassed , as you have lots of things to be embarassed about ,you would spend your life time being embarassed for all our foibles …
Now the pseudo secularist that I am , and quite inept at understanding ‘simple english’ ..few questions which sprung up because of your constant urge to recognise ‘Islamic Jihadism’ as THE potent threat ready to jeopardise all ancient civilisations ( semitic..lets leave our anti -semitic bretheren out). Now since I accept Islamic jihadi movement is a threat..what next ?? Lets teach all our little kids about the wrongs and sins committed by Muslims to the natives ..fine , that task is done..so here we have some millions of kids all aware of our history and the brutality faced by their forefathers.. and now since we have fed them with ‘true’ history we sure have to include a chapter on tolerance right , and not to commit such acts..Do you think it will work :)….
what you are doing is something similar like what Hitler did..teach the germans the ‘RIGHT’ history..quite unwittingly you are falling back to the same things which disrupted millions of lifes world over 🙂
why dont we leave history to historians , let them slug it out ..few readings of online web stuff is sure to churn passions high..what say ?? I think we got better things to work ourselves about in our day to day life..How do you explain the threat of Islamic Jihadi threat in India when 74% of Indian Muslims are not from the Wahabi belief :).
I am not for the moment saying it is not a threat..it sure is , but we sure have threats of similar scale..the militancy in north east..the naxals .. ( Reddy brothers ?? :D).. ( statistically speaking , assuming for the moment govt records to be right..Independent India has seen higher Muslim death due to riots than their counterparts..) then who is the genocide victim here ?? Just four large scale massacres from 20th ecnturys.. 84 ( sikhs ) Nellie ( muslims ) , Marichjapi ( muslims) & ofcourse Gujrat.., Bombay riots..I really hate to do this , cateogarise death by their religion.. but since you are stuck with Genocidal traits of a certain religion..stats speak to the contrary..so , why dont we learn this part of the history too.. The only example you can substantially quote is Kashmir , but lets face the truth , for thousands of hindus killed and forced to flee , thousans of muslims have lost their life too..
Another question..how do u hold a Hindu accountable for his ancestors misdeeds , how does he show he is ashamed ? 🙂 ever thought how this can be implemented..do you think we can ban the brahminical sacred thread as they symbolise the centuries of upperclass hegemony ( now ofcourse , they have to be ashamed right..so some way of them showing it ? )
do you get the drift..being aware of history is one side of the story.. how is someone being made aware is the difficult part of the story..am sure not all of the people out to set the record books right have yoru intellect and foresight..do they ? how sure are you this whole project will not be hijcaked by lumpen fringe elements of the right wing ? ( there are some fab intellectuals in their wing too..no disrespect to them ! )
So all this brouhaha about genoicdial traits of some ancient rulers who carried out dastardly acts in 16th – 17th centuries is too old to be remembered and repeated to the children as the right history. No wonder I would forget such history ( or parts of it) than rmbr them..for the half baked intellects that we are , am sure reading of such history does not augur non violence in us..
I really would have appreciated your stance if you had given a balanced view of genocidal traits of everyone..but looks like you have been on a strict diet of right wing literature..
@ Bachs , I guess our comments have digressed from the intent of your post..apologise for that 🙂 your post just played into the hands of the usual right wing crib 🙂 which was def not the intent of the blog… anyways..no more comments post this 🙂 will be futile.. each one to his own..
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@dilip
Thanks for the comment
On “Pulikesi and Harshavardhan”. Yes this is what kings do. You read it in history, its all there? My question is why these kinds of acts are not registered for Mughals? Something’s missing right? Only for these guys? Shankaracharyas and Jains are all fine. Do they still do it?
On “imagine if I were Dalit” part. Dude, the course of action taken by learning history is entirely up to attitude of a person who is suppressed. For e.g. I would right it in “juicy blog” and continue protest to show my disappointment till things change. You would probably forgive them instantly and go back to “cocooned life”. But that’s not the point here. Predicting the consequences of teaching truth, can you hide something from history? Can you go on teaching people “upper class never suppressed Dalits” or “They both had life of perfect harmony”. Do you think this is ethically and morally correct? Think about what you are asking…
On “I would rather have history erased…” Really? This is something like “I would rather not have any government than paying for their corruption” Can you manage without them? You simply can’t. History is something which tracks about how you have done things in past… its something you need to use to learn how to do things and how not to.
Why are you under impression that I am targeting a section? I am not. I want all religions gone…!! I can live with some harmless ones around (only if they don’t poke their nose in judicial system, science etc). For the rest, we need to continue to correct them to dilute till they become harmless (completely) for human goodness.
On “westerners” , of course , we did not have any Indian Historians at that time did we? And on those we had, I am writing this post (can they be trusted? ) And in addition, for Indians do give a big deal when a westerner says something.. for instance whole Aryan invasion theory was formed by Max Muller. He may be right, but that’s different topic. I just wanted to stress our tendency.
We can leave “history to historians” if we think they are doing their job right. If we doubt they don’t, we have every right to dispute, don’t we? Don’t forget Fundamental Duties (Article 51A of the Constitution of India), exhorts every citizen: (h) to develop the scientific temper, humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform;
All the several examples you have given is correct, they are perfect, but how do you know they are not cherry picked? Just to aid your point? When my whole post is about some major stories are being omitted, how listing opposite going to help. I am talking about the cases which are not registered in history… lets append them to this list and lets how the statistics stand. Apologies for bragging about my topic and my post… as author and moderator it’s my work to pull you to my post J
I agree Hindu is not accountable for his ancestor’s misdeeds… so is Muslim or an Aryan. But what it has to do with accepting that something has been done?
I appreciate that you are standing up for views and fighting, but even I am doing the same J
Lot to talk dude lot to! Unfortunate that we dint do it in 3rd bench we sat during boring sessions of our college. Remember I am same old atheist dreaming on setting all these right.
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@ Dileep
better Indian?
I do not know what a “better indian” is.
I am proud to be Indian. I am honest in my words and actions.
Since living and working in the West. Fighting for twenty odd years against a prejudiced society; against discrimination on grounds of nationality and colour. Fighting to prove that not all Indians (or indeed any third world citizen) are backward / uneducated / ignorant / unintelligent / incompetent or are still living in trees.
It is recognised by the civilised that it is essential to read history to “learn about the human past”. Cut away history altogether, you cut away all records of our mistakes and atrocities. You kill off the social conscience.
Yes, it embarrasses me to find another Indian, presumably educated enough to comment on the web, asserting
The very kind of comment that are picked upon to justify prejudices. It makes our fight against discrimination that little bit harder.
But why should you worry, you being in a cocooned life may not know what fighting racial discrimination really is.
Before I finish, let me take you to
1. the topic of this blog, “How great were Mughals?” – with a paragraph that clearly states “Talking about history and its accuracy, …. and claims that history is inaccurate about his rule.” The crucial point being discussed is the practised negationism specific of Islamic history.
2. The first comment, which was mine – which was wholly relevant to the topic set out by the author.
You discredit the efforts and opinion of the author and also the commenter by saying –
It may be how you would speak or write, but do not generalise others who writes in earnest.
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